{"id":382,"date":"2013-02-26T06:08:28","date_gmt":"2013-02-26T12:08:28","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/?p=382"},"modified":"2013-02-26T06:08:28","modified_gmt":"2013-02-26T12:08:28","slug":"sneaky-calvinism-calvinism-on-the-sly-in-action","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/2013\/02\/26\/sneaky-calvinism-calvinism-on-the-sly-in-action\/","title":{"rendered":"Sneaky Calvinism – Calvinism on the Sly in Action"},"content":{"rendered":"

Reblogged from: Arminian Perspectives<\/a><\/p>\n

About a week ago, I discovered a post<\/a> highlighting C.\u00a0Michael\u00a0Patton\u2019s post on \u201cThe Irrationality of Calvini<\/a>sm\u201d, a post I interacted with in a 5 part series<\/a>. \u00a0In looking over the comments I discovered an extremely disturbing example of Calvinism on the Sly<\/a> written by someone who goes by \u201cBlainemonster\u201d<\/a>. \u00a0Apparently, \u201cBlainemonster\u201d teaches high school students at an Assemblies of God church (a denomination that is decidedly against Calvinism). \u00a0He took the opportunity to brag about how he had \u201ccleverly\u201d introduced his Calvinist philosophy to his AG class,<\/p>\n

Just yesterday I was teaching (in my A\/G church) my high school class the Scriptural truths about God\u2019s sovereignty in salvation. I cleverly did not use the terms \u201cunconditional election\u201d or \u201cCalvinism.\u201d I simply explained what the Bible clearly teaches in, i.e., Ephesians 1 and Romans 8. The kids came up with some good questions, and what I noticed was that we (humans)\u00a0desperately<\/i>\u00a0want to be able to explain everything.<\/p>\n

A couple of the students hypothesized that, regarding foreknowledge, it was just that since God knows everything, he already knew who would choose him \u2013 that same ol\u2019 saw. I explained that first of all, that that is NOT what \u201cforeknow\u201d means, and then helped them to see that if itwere<\/i>\u00a0true, then God is essentially bound by our decisions.<\/p>\n

We went on from there to talk very briefly about the mysteries of God. At any rate, it was a fun exercise, and what you\u2019ve posted today is just exactly where we were yesterday. I love these bits especially:\u201cThe issue of human freedom and unconditional election is in the same apophatic domain. We can\u2019t make sense out of them and once we do, we have entered into error.<\/i><\/p>\n

And later,\u00a0Will you trust me or will you redefine things?\u201d <\/i>[link<\/a>]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I left a response that was never approved,<\/p>\n

The Blainemonster,<\/p>\n

What AG church do you work at?\u00a0 I would like to contact them and let them know what you are up to.\u00a0 Why is that you think it is OK to slip your Calvinism into a lesson to HS students, when you know that the AG is against Calvinism?\u00a0 Of course, you can believe what you want, but what you are doing is dead wrong and you should resign from any teaching position you have with the AG.\u00a0 May God help you to do the right thing,<\/p>\n

Ben<\/p>\n

And if you want to see an Arminian response to Patton\u2019s question begging post, or comment, see my 5 Part response beginning here: http:\/\/arminianperspectives.wordpress.com\/2013\/01\/16\/an-arminian-response-to-c-michael-pattons-the-irrationality-of-calvinism-part-1-the-set-up\/<\/a><\/p>\n

\u2026and if you want to debate your Calvinism with someone other than high school kids, I\u2019m up for the challenge.\u00a0 Just leave a comment or two at my site.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

While I understand that Blainemonster probably believes that he is doing God\u2019s work in introducing his Calvinism to these kids (since he is\u00a0obviously\u00a0convinced that Calvinism is true and anything less than Calvinism is not), the fact\u00a0remains\u00a0that he is, by his own admission, being sneaky about it. \u00a0But why be so sneaky? \u00a0Why the need to do things so \u201ccleverly\u201d? \u00a0I honestly cannot think of any other reasons\u00a0besides\u00a0the fact that he knew what he was doing was out of\u00a0harmony\u00a0with the beliefs of the church he was serving. \u00a0Why else boast in how clever he was to introduce Calvinism and slam that \u201csame ol\u2019 saw\u201d of foreknowledge held by the AG and traditional Arminians (though he doesn\u2019t seem to fully understand the traditional Arminian view). \u00a0Does he really\u00a0want\u00a0these kids to think for\u00a0themselves\u00a0 or does he want to indoctrinate them? \u00a0Notice that they came up with\u00a0foreknowledge\u00a0themselves. \u00a0 So it seems clear to me that \u201cBlainemonster\u201d at least had some inclination that what he was doing was wrong.<\/p>\n

It is\u00a0further\u00a0interesting that\u00a0despite\u00a0his issue with humans \u201cdesperately<\/i>\u00a0want[ing] to be able to explain everything\u201d, he still felt the (desperate?) need to \u201cexplain\u201d and \u201chelp them see\u201d that there ideas on foreknowledge were wrong. \u00a0He needs to \u201cexplain\u201d to them that this is \u201cNOT what \u2018foreknow\u2019 means\u201d (really?) and would actually make \u201cGod\u2026essentially bound by our decisions\u201d (which is total nonsense, of course).<\/p>\n

While refusing to post my response (and,\u00a0apparently\u00a0other\u2019s responses as well), the blog operator did decide to let us know why he would not publish our comments:<\/p>\n

Some comments (which I have left unpublished) have taken issue with the Blainemonster\u2019s personal account regarding a discussion of election in a Sunday School class. The Blainemonster is not required to justify his actions in this forum, and as moderator I have opted not to place him in that position on this blog. It is likely that the Blainemonster has the appropriate godly people in his life who can speak to him about any perceived issues; it is also likely that his theological leanings are well known to those with whom he associates. Either way, that is his concern and will not be made a matter of judgmental confrontation here.<\/p>\n

The Assemblies of God is not an officially Arminian denomination, as some have assumed. This can be seen from the official statements below. Speaking as one who attended A\/G churches for approximately 10 years, is a graduate of one of their Bible colleges, and held a paid ministry position in one of their churches for several years, I can personally confirm the following:<\/p>\n

A. There are Calvinists scattered throughout the A\/G, and they are generally tolerated (though sometimes misunderstood) B. The A\/G\u2019s official positions reflect a deep misunderstanding of Calvinistic doctrines, such that it would be inaccurate to say they are officially opposed to Calvinism; they are more opposed to hyper-Calvinism and \u201cOnce saved, always saved\u201d than genuine, mainstream Calvinism.<\/p>\n

An additional response addressing some of the A\/G\u2019s official statements on Calvinism will follow.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I need to make a few comments here. \u00a0First, how is it that this guy knows that \u201cit is also likely that his theological leanings are well known to those with whom he associates\u201d? \u00a0If he means those he teaches under \u00a0at the AG church, then why the need to be so sneaky? \u00a0What about the parents of those kids? \u00a0Do they have a right to know what is going on? \u00a0Remember, Blainmonster didn\u2019t just present opposing views and allow the students to decide for\u00a0themselves\u00a0(though I have my doubts that he could even\u00a0accurately\u00a0present the Arminian view). \u00a0Rather, he took sides in a rather strong manner for Calvinism (and did it \u201ccleverly\u201d). \u00a0And if Blainemonster is so well known for his Calvinism in his church, why not allow my post so that Blainemonster can let me know what AG church he teaches at? \u00a0He\u00a0should\u00a0have nothing at all to worry about. \u00a0And why is it that the administrator is not willing to judge Balinmonster\u2019s actions, but is more than ready to judge my response\u00a0inappropriate? \u00a0He can run his blog how he likes, but his response sure seems rather one sided. \u00a0While he doesn\u2019t think it right for me to judge his actions inappropriate, he sure does seem to think it necessary to defend Blainemonster\u2019s actions (since apparently Blainemonster can\u2019t defend himself).<\/p>\n

He then goes on to do so by making the following points,<\/p>\n

The Assemblies of God is not an officially Arminian denomination, as some have assumed.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That really\u00a0doesn\u2019t\u00a0matter. \u00a0What is an \u201cofficially\u00a0Arminian denomination\u201d anyway? \u00a0One thing that is for sure is that the AG rejects unconditional election,\u00a0irresistible\u00a0grace, \u00a0limited atonement, and inevitable perseverance. \u00a0Likewise, they uphold free will in the libertarian sense and reject exhaustive determinism. \u00a0Blainemonster knows all of this, and yet \u201ccleverly\u201d introduced Calvinist ideas to these kids. \u00a0Furthermore, I think it can be\u00a0demonstrated\u00a0that while the AG rejects the label of \u201cArminian\u201d they are\u00a0decidedly\u00a0Arminian in their theology. \u00a0Their rejection of the title seems to be the result of wrongly defining Arminianism in accordance with the misrepresentations of Calvinist critics, rather than on what Arminianism actually entails. \u00a0I\u00a0documented\u00a0this some time ago here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

A. There are Calvinists scattered throughout the A\/G, and they are generally tolerated (though sometimes misunderstood)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

But this is hardly relevant. \u00a0Just because they are tolerated doesn\u2019t mean they are teaching Calvinism or that the AG also tolerates them teaching Calvinism. \u00a0To tolerate someone with differing views is not the same as approving of their teaching those\u00a0views\u00a0in the context of an AG class to kids.<\/p>\n

B. The A\/G\u2019s official positions reflect a deep misunderstanding of Calvinistic doctrines, such that it would be inaccurate to say they are officially opposed to Calvinism; they are more opposed to hyper-Calvinism and \u201cOnce saved, always saved\u201d than genuine, mainstream Calvinism.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That may be the case (just as they reflect a\u00a0misunderstanding\u00a0of Arminianism-though that doesn\u2019t seem to concern the blog administrator), but they also reflect a rejection of all of the Calvinist doctrines I listed above. \u00a0In his next post he quotes very\u00a0selectively\u00a0from the same AG position paper that I\u00a0highlighted\u00a0in my post on the AG\u2019s stance on eternal security (linked above). \u00a0Much of his argument is based on the confusion the paper\u00a0demonstrates\u00a0in what constitutes Arminianism and what constitutes\u00a0Calvinism,\u00a0 the same issue I pointed out in my post. \u00a0However, he draws some unwarranted\u00a0conclusions based on his\u00a0selectivity\u00a0and \u201cinterpretation\u201d of what these position papers are expressing. \u00a0 We will take a detailed look at that in my next post.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Reblogged from: Arminian Perspectives About a week ago, I discovered a post highlighting C.\u00a0Michael\u00a0Patton\u2019s post on \u201cThe Irrationality of Calvinism\u201d, a post I interacted with in a 5 part series. \u00a0In looking over the comments I discovered an extremely disturbing example of Calvinism on the Sly written by someone who goes by \u201cBlainemonster\u201d. \u00a0Apparently, \u201cBlainemonster\u201d…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[8],"tags":[24],"class_list":["post-382","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-posts-from-other-blogs","tag-posts-from-other-blogs"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/382","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=382"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/382\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=382"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=382"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/the-jesus-realm.com\/wordpress\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=382"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}